Valve Actuator Alternatives

[Gast]

I'm finding the Loxone Valve Actuator pretty expensive.
Can someone recommend a good alternative?
I have found a $17 24VDC normally closed Valve Actuator here. (They also have 230V an normally open/closed versions)
But how do you connect these? Do they even work in combination with Loxone?

[simon_hh]

Good morning Rubeast,
the loxone valve actuator is a modulating type. It has 3 cables to be connected: +24V, GND and 0-10V for the required position, meaning 0V is closed and 10V is 100% opened.
Those Chinese actuators you have posted, have only 2 cables, so those are PWM type (puls-width modulation). they act like the normal 230V Version of loxone and use a puls to stay in the required Position. It is an on/off principle, and they stay at the desired position.
If you are using an under-floor heating it might be ok, but don´t get blended by words 24V DC, that does not mean it is an internal regulating device included as in the loxone / Möhlenhoff Alpha series, which is called a proportional valve.

I am quit often in China, since that I dont not trust in sentences like that: "RZ-AN 24 thermal actuator is a two point form switching device which has been tested
by TUV"

They may work properly, but you never know. Also there is no Information about power consumption.

[simon_hh]

proportional / modulating valve drive.: 24V and GND is general power supply. 0-10 V(or 1-10V) is the control power for the position.
The above mentioned: Standard PWM valve drive: +24V and GND as control power

[simon_hh]

To your second question: yes the would work with a Relais / digital output of the loxone extension or relay Extension. That output supports PWM.

So if the PWM type is good enough for your requirements (under-floor heating) I would recommend using an European product, that is certified and TÜV tested. Nearly same price but quality: http://www.firaco.de/shop/moehlenhof...trieb-24v?c=49

[Robert L.]

no need to buy this things in china...: https://www.amazon.de/Stellantrieb-B...W+stellantrieb

[duncan]

assuming you are looking for manifold actuators, then absolutely no need to buy expensive loxone ones

the on/off 240v ones are the cheapest, and easy to link to loxone using the built in relay outputs, or cheaper still dmx relays if you have a lot of zones, and the IRC pwm output Q

obviously the alpha 5 ones as already linked, but lots of other options such as http://www.wundatrade.co.uk/controls...tor-valve.html which work out around £10 when you buy 30

[Gast]

Thanks for all the replies guys! Much appreciated!

I'm guessing this is the datasheet you have to use: http://www.loxone.com/tl_files/loxon...e-actuator.pdf
But can someone explain it a little bit? I understand that I need to use a Loxone output, but what are the other connections? What is that timer?
Sorry. I'm new to Loxone and I haven't bought one yet.

I'm guessing the modulating type that you can connect to the analog output is more interesting. But I can't find these.
By the way. Does anyone have a good use for the analog outputs?

Or is the 'Loxone Valve Actuators Tree' worth it's price? The bus system of Tree looks pretty interesting since you only have to use 1 output on the Tree extension.

[Christian Fenzl]

That "Electrical Connection" picture really is misleading for a Loxone installation. They took a generic picture that doesn't fit to Loxone wiring. The timer in that picture is controlling a heating system, that controls the valve.
In a Loxone installation, the 230VAC valve is connected to a digital output. Everything else is done in Loxone Config (Intelligent Room Controller).
You haven't answered the type of heating you have (floor or radiators).
PWM or 0-10V or Loxone Tree is an overall calculation you have to do yourself, knowing about your environment, cabling and heating requirements,

[Gast]

That "Electrical Connection" picture really is misleading for a Loxone installation. They took a generic picture that doesn't fit to Loxone wiring. The timer in that picture is controlling a heating system, that controls the valve.
In a Loxone installation, the 230VAC valve is connected to a digital output. Everything else is done in Loxone Config (Intelligent Room Controller).
You haven't answered the type of heating you have (floor or radiators).
PWM or 0-10V or Loxone Tree is an overall calculation you have to do yourself, knowing about your environment, cabling and heating requirements,

Thanks!
It's a new house we are building. In a couple of months we are going to do the cabling.
So I'm trying to do as much research as I can!

The whole house has floor heating.
Livingroom, dining room, kitchen and studyroom are one large open space.
Than we have 3 bedrooms, the corridor upstairs and the small entrance hall with floor heating.
In the bathroom we have floor heating + a radiator.

[duncan]

okso its underfloor heating

it has a very slow response time, and generally doesnt need proportional actuators so any 240v or even 12/24v on/off type actuator that fits the manifolds will work fine, using the Q pwm output of loxones IRC block for each zone.

as already stated by others, these are connected to supplies of the appropriate voltage to the actuator via loxone relays or equivalents that loxone can control such as dmx relays etc etc

room temperatures sensors are sent back to loxone and all the room control, logic and final demand to fire the boiler and circulating pumps is via loxone config

in terms of wiring for heating, then you are going to need a single 0v/earth and 1 wire/core for each zone of the heating manifold going back to wherever your miniserver/extension are and suitably rated cable for the circulating pump - so in my case i have a mains rated 16 core wire going from each manifold back to the miniserver/extensions which is enough cores for zone valves, pumps and some to spare. i also have a cat5 to each manifold for a 1-wire temperature sensor and some of these cores are used to control a 24v 0-10v actuator that can change the temperature of the manifold, but for a basic install this isnt really necessary.
i also ran an extra cat5 to each manifold so i could use dmx with a local dmx relay block at each manifold instead of using loxone relays - that way i have some future flexibility if the relays are required for other things

some larger areas such as your open space will have several loops from the manifold so may have a number of actuators, but they are generally connected together as it is only 1 heating zone. In my own house ive kept them separate with individual zones and IRCs and temperature sensors, so its possible to have the sitting area slightly warmer than the kitchen area for example in the evening.

given that its a new build and cat5/6/7 is very cheap, i would put extra network cables to the manifolds anyway just in case. fit doesnt need to be expensive loxone cat7 - for dmx and 1-wire i generally used screened cat5 in different colours as its very cheap and quite thin and flexible, as particularly 1-wire can be very sensitive to interference.

some heating designers put the bathrooms on the same loops as the bedrooms to save money, but i would strongly recommend you NOT do this - keep them separate with their own temperature sensor and zone/loop/actuator - most of us would like a cool bedroom but a nice warm bathroom in the morning and evening rather than a cold bathroom or sweaty bedroom

[Christian Fenzl]

So you would have - depending on the square meters - about 10 or more heating circuits.

Calculate the costs of the different systems when you know, how many outputs stay free after you've planned the other stuff.

All types of valves (also 230V On-Off) are useful for floor heating. You won't see/feel a difference.
A good heating technician can set up your heating so you don't even need any room control valves.

AQ's can be used as DQ's in a limited fashion, using small couple relays (12V/5A). The current is limited, therefore only small 5A relays will work.

[Gast]

so in my case i have a mains rated 16 core wire going from each manifold back to the miniserver/extensions which is enough cores for zone valves, pumps and some to spare. i also have a cat5 to each manifold for a 1-wire temperature sensor and some of these cores are used to control a 24v 0-10v actuator that can change the temperature of the manifold, but for a basic install this isnt really necessary.

The distance between the miniserver and the heating manifolds wouldn't be more than 4 meters and they will be in the same room.
As I understand your heating manifold are placed all throughout your house? Is there a reason you don't have them installed at the source?

given that its a new build and cat5/6/7 is very cheap, i would put extra network cables to the manifolds anyway just in case. fit doesnt need to be expensive loxone cat7 - for dmx and 1-wire i generally used screened cat5 in different colours as its very cheap and quite thin and flexible, as particularly 1-wire can be very sensitive to interference.

My idea was using a 16 or 24 core wire to all my push buttons and fixing/reserving 2 cores that stay the same for each room for 1-wire temperature sensors.
That way I can also place the sensor together with a push button in the wall.
But since you say they are sensitive to interference you wouldn't recommend this I'm guessing?

local dmx relay block

What is a dmx relay block? Is this a way to save on Loxone outputs?
I can't seem to find much info about this.

[duncan]

my manifolds are throughout the house because the maximum pipe run for a loop is usually 100m, and for a large property there is no pipe left for heating once you get to a room, so 2 manifolds upstairs and 2 downstairs arranged to keep the pipe runs reasonable

1-wire can be very fickle, especially if you follow loxones guide wiring them in a star arrangement, sharing the same cable as the switch inputs - its the one arrangement not recommended by the 1-wire designers.

it may well work for a smaller install, and may work anyway, but the best way to design a reliable 1-wire network is using a single loop of wire starting at the 1-wire extension and going from point to point in a single strand. using a separate screened network reduces the risk of failure. one of my installs has around 40 sensors and is completely reliable

16-24 core wire is expensive compared to cat5/6/7, and you are highly unlikely to want that many switches in a single location. if you use a loop of network cable to each switch location for 1-wire sensors and a strand of network cable from each switch back to loxone, you can run 7 dumb switches at each location. if you need more than 4 buttons its probably best to swap to something with an interface such as a knx switch, which can offer icons, labels, feedback and multiple buttons using just 2 cores of the network cable.

dmx relay block - sorry i wasnt very clear! dmx devices are available containing a number of relay outputs instead of pwm led dimmer - so for example i might use a 12 channel dmx relays to control the manifold actuators, you would install a cat5/6/7 dmx signal cable from your loxone dmx extension to the manifold and a 240v supply, and the dmx relay module/block/device can be controlled from loxone but would switch your local 240v to each actuator as required, creating a more distributed structure with simpler and cheaper wiring.

it starts to make a lot of economic sense to use dmx for dimming and relays when an install gets quite large as the parts are cheaper than lots of loxone extensions, and the wiring is just cat5/6/7 and power to each control location.